Dave Congalton on News Talk 920 KVEC: Arnold and the Illegals

Sunday, June 07, 2009

Arnold and the Illegals

We've been talking a lot lately about the budget crisis facing California, currently hovering around $25 billion. And, without fail, whenever the subject comes up, so does the question of illegal immigrants and their impact on California.

Today's Sacramento Bee has an interesting take on the issue by Marcus Breton. Here's part of what he argues:

"Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger stopped by The Bee on Friday and made many interesting comments – and one amazing one:

"(We) ignore (the) contributions undocumented immigrants make," Schwarzenegger said. "Everything we eat today is picked and created by undocumented immigrants, to a large extent."

Some people grow angry at such talk, but so what? If only the governor would repeat this strong message more often.

States such as California rely on the cheap labor of undocumented immigrants. But when these immigrants go to the hospital, when their kids go to school, or when some go to jail, they become key players in the budget crisis.

Ay caramba! If only we could wave a magic wand and make these folks disappear at the end of their work shifts. If only they could clean toilets, care for infants, clean up after the elderly, slaughter pigs, pick melons, pluck chickens, gut fish, make hotel beds and landscape yards – and do it for little compensation.

Damn them.

In fact, many people do. The governor spoke of how some seem to blame the undocumented for California's $24.3 billion budget deficit.

"I think it's an easy scapegoat for people to point the finger and say, 'Our budget is out of whack because of illegal immigrants,' " Schwarzenegger said. "It's not. Our budget is out of whack because we have self-inflicted wounds that the Legislature and this state has never really sat down and had the will to go and make the necessary changes."

Words matter. The governor's words on this topic matter a great deal. Numbers matter, too, and credible research has trumped the notion that the undocumented drain the public treasury.

Venom directed toward the undocumented is pervasive to the point of being indiscriminate, like buckshot fired in the night. Any reference to ethnicity triggers invective. I've had the word "ILLEGALS" hurled at me following benign references to my Mexican ancestors.

The rants are so angry and automatic that they smear even the charity that's helping young, innocent children burned Friday in a horrible fire in Mexico. Despite some of the comments under that story on sacbee.com, these kids didn't sneak up here Saturday to soak up free medical care.

Schwarzenegger has pushed back in his own way, citing "contributions" of the undocumented. He was saying they give more than they take. He wasn't advocating open borders, but acknowledging the reality of economics as the engine driving illegal immigration."

39 Comments:

It is not that legal citizens will not clean toilets and so on, the illegals do it for so damn cheap, it is not worthwhile to do that work. It's the cheap bastard employers who use illegals to bust unions and cheap no good homeowners who hire the day laborers that kill us! Employers who hire illegals should be jailed and fined out of business.

Just so you know, Dave, I'm as white as you (Irish) and I've cleaned toilets when I was younger and unskilled. I babysit my friend's kids, I've slaughtered or killed plenty of pigs, cattle, deer, rabbit, dove, quail and gutted hundreds and hundreds of fish. I've done all of that and more. Landscaping also.

The problem is the no-damn-good employers who hire the illegals! Deport them also when we're deporting the illegals.

But all of the work you mention, white and black Americans used to do it until it became financially unviable to do so.

By Herod, at Sunday, June 07, 2009 9:11:00 PM
Keep the illegals and fire teachers and lazy state workers.
In the long rin it will save us money.
Shutting down all non essential state agencies will save the 27 billion easy.
Californua tax payers have spoken and now the state has to listen.

By Home schooler, at Sunday, June 07, 2009 9:12:00 PM
Dave - I'll try to be exact about what, in particular, in your post I take issue with.

The whole "illegal" issue is truly one made up of many smaller issues.

My particular pet-peeve, when it comes to using the argument "they do work we (legal citizens) won't do" boils down to taxes.

Every single employer in the state of CA is REQUIRED (by law and with fines for non-compliance) to submit documents with legal social security numbers/work status numbers.

When an employer knowingly utilizes these folks, the tax base is hit in multiple ways. No employer-based tax is paid into the system and no employee-based tax is either.

The taxes that ultimately result in road repairs, emergency care, Unemployment/Medicare/Social Security benefits. When an aged illegal (who may have worked years alongside us "legal" ones) requires assistance, they don't have those benefits and instead use the services that are funded by the LEGAL employee's taxes - welfare, emergency rooms, etc.

The employers should have greater incentive to only hire legal employees. When they circumvent "the system", everyone else who IS playing "by the rules" is getting screwed.

Of course, there is even greater tax/financial issues at play - sales tax is being missed because a portion of the illegal wages are being sent to Mexico instead of being spent in American counties. The problem of uninsured illegals driving the roads.

I could go on, but the tax issue is my chief complaint.

By ajdury, at Sunday, June 07, 2009 9:57:00 PM
Good post, and some people do have an uncanny way of missing the whole picture on illegal immigration in their desire to scapegoat brown people. The European parliamentary election results show very worrying signs that recession is bringing out this ugly tendency there.

By A M, at Monday, June 08, 2009 8:14:00 AM
Good analysis and spot on. We demonize the Mexicans, but who does the dirty work around here? Very sad.

By Peter J. Taylor, at Monday, June 08, 2009 10:57:00 AM
Just an FYI:

There have been increased attempts recently to post Comments that are basically personally attacks on me. Many of them drift in from Arizona. Some are attached to arguments about the topic. Those Comments are deleted without exception.

If you want to comment about me, please call our KVEC Comment Line at 597.1441 and let the hate spew.

Thank you.

By Dave Congalton, at Monday, June 08, 2009 11:07:00 AM
So the Sacramento Bee has found that Governor Schwarzenegger expressed the great insight that economics is the "engine driving illegal immigration". Since when has that ever been in doubt? Has anyone seriously contended that the people hopping over the fences in Tijuana, for example, were really just frustrated tourists looking to spend their money here? Of course, economics is the engine driving illegal immigration. Illegal immigrants come to the USA in search of jobs and other (at times criminal) opportunities to make money. And there are unscrupulous employers who like cheap labor which is less likely to complain about exploitation.

There is a myriad of economic aspects to illegal immigration. Many illegal immigrants obviously contribute to production, be it in agriculture, the construction industry or in restaurants. Many illegal immigrants contribute to tax revenues and social security, at least if they are working at a job where the employer has been deceived into thinking the person is a legal immigrant with a social security number. Many illegal immigrants also cost money in the form of public services or being incarcerated for crimes. Depending on who prepares the statistics and what formulae are applied, a case can be made that illegal immigration is an overall plus for, or an overall drag on the economy. The economic aspects, however, are completely irrelevant when setting policy on illegal immigration.

One of the main areas of concern for every society is knowing who belongs in its territory and who doesn't. As a country, we have developed a complex body of immigration law for deciding who we allow in, for how long we allow them in and what they can do while here. Those rules are not written in stone. They are legislation which can be amended as needed, for example, in order to allow legal immigration to work in agriculture if a need for workers exists which cannot be met with our own citizens.

No sane person would propose an "open border" policy lifting all border controls and permitting anyone who can walk across the border to stay here. The general public and the political parties recognize that we need immigration laws and that those laws should be enforced. The real issues are what those laws should be and how to effectively enforce them. How generous should we be in granting visas and work permits? How should we deal with the people who are already in this country? How efficient should the deportation process be? What sanctions should be placed on employers who hire illegal immigrants? Those and many more what we need our politicians to deal with.

Unfortunately, the debate too often gets clouded with incomprehensible amounts of economic and sociological data. The debate also seems to quickly sink to the level of name calling and accusations of racism (of course, that won't happen on this blog site). Most politicians seem to address the issue of illegal immigration only when they feel a need to distract the general political debate from other pressing problems, particularly in the election season. Perhaps that is why our policy on how to deal with illegal immigration is still relatively incoherent and why there seems to be no serious effort in Congress to deal with the issue.

By Chris in Paso, at Monday, June 08, 2009 11:13:00 AM
Fear driven vitriol is always the same. Gays, socialism, undocumented immigrants, whichever is the flavor of the week.
BTW, I kinda figured that Kokkonen was a bit off from the little I have gleaned about him from his letters and others comments. I didn't really know though. After listening to him on your show this evening I am afraid to report that everything I had feared was true. Seems like a nice guy who is sadly and hugely misinformed. At least that is my sincere hope. To think the alternative is really sad.

By Anonymous, at Monday, June 08, 2009 8:59:00 PM
I'm not aware of any studies that show the positive impact of illegals in California. Dave, if you know of any, please post the links. We always hear the argument that no one else would take these jobs. I'm not so sure about that -- especially if we required able-bodied welfare recipients to work.

Fundamental change is in the air. We can no longer afford to let illegals clog the system. It's not racist. It's reality.

By chuckman, at Tuesday, June 09, 2009 6:42:00 AM
"I'm not aware of any studies that show the positive impact of illegals"

Come on Chuck, it's all about votes. If we can get Republican taxes to pay half the welfare, health costs and shooling for illegal, and we can fet ACORN to register them we will be in power forever! It worked for Obama and all we are trying yo do i make it permanant now.
Hang in there...Viva la Raza!

By democrat, at Tuesday, June 09, 2009 6:51:00 AM
Of course illegals do the work that native born Americans won't do because their very presence depresses wages to the point where no native born American can afford to do the work.

Black construction labor in New Orleans was forced into unemployment because a wave of illegals decended on NO to rebuild the city. There is a definate impact from the presence of illegal labor. Illegals depress wages everywhere, even here in California.

To continue to have open/very porous borders is to continue to provide more liberal welfare in the form of state services, giving jobs native born and legal immigrants would do to illegals and a smaller tax base due to the lack of state income tax revenues.

When the national unemployment rate is 9.2% and climbingl, isn't it about time to stop subsidizing Mexico and other nations and allow legal residents of America a chance to earn a wage?

You liberals will one day be forced to choose between providing for legal Americans and global welfare. Allowing illegals to enter America and take any jobs is to deny Americans legally residing here every opportunity to earn a wage by their own labor. You can't have your cake and eat it too, and one day this issue will define you as a party and an ideology.

It is not about race and skin color despite what you reverse racists on the left want to believe. It is about right and wrong; it is about legal and illegal residents; it is about taking care of the United States of America and not giving welfare to Mexico, Honduras, China, Ireland or any other nation that exports people illegally to the US.

By Big Tent Republican, at Tuesday, June 09, 2009 9:30:00 AM
Chuck,
Here's a peer reviewed paper explaining how undocumented workers pay more into the public coffers than they consume.

http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/llr/vol9/lipman.pdf

Big Tent,
I'm pleased to see you are concerned about raising wages in this country. I would assume, then, that you are a strong advocate for the most effective method of driving up wages; raising the state and federal minimum wage.

By LeRoy, at Tuesday, June 09, 2009 9:59:00 AM
Oh, absolutely, BTR! Instead of letting those damned illegals come and work and earn and spend their money here, we should continue to allow our businesses to relocate across the borders, so that the Mexicans and Guatemalans and Salvadorans can work (for longer hours) and earn (far less) and spend their money THERE! No more of those damned illegals paying sales tax, and Social Security, and Workers Comp, and gas tax! No more corporations paying that pesky payroll taxes!

Oh, you truly are a wise economist.

Actually, of course, I agree with you that the complete lack of enforcement upon businesses that hire undocumented workers does help to depress wages, in the same way that the attack on unions that's been going on for the last 25 years has depressed wages.

The minimum wage has not been this low (in purchasing power, of course) since 1956.

I can see that you are right in line with Cesar Chavez, who was opposed to illegal immigration, was in favor of increased wages and improved conditions for farm laborers and who believed that the value of labor was wholly devalued.

Big Tent Republican, fan of Cesar Chavez and the United Farm Workers. Wow. Who knew?

By Liam, at Tuesday, June 09, 2009 10:16:00 AM
LeRoy, I am NOT for raising the minimum wage because the minimum wage also depresses wages. If you raise the minimum wage, the budget for labor remains the same, therefore you are able to employ FEWER not more workers. The best way to raise wages is to increase employment opportunities. With more businesses employing more workers, a shortage of labor occurs. In the short run, wages go up because of the labor shortage. I have seen wages increase at McDonalds and Burger King in places like Seattle and St Louis because the aircraft industry hired up more than the usual amount of employees to meet production demand. When they hire more workers, employers like Kohl's and your run of the mill flower shops have to go into hte high school student market to get employees. This leaves places where entry level workers go like McDonalds needing to pay more to get employees. Many of those employees are senior citizens that are asked back into the workforce to fill the need of employers. Raising minimum wages just increases the minimum people will get paid, not what a market determines you should be paid. it is the simple economic principle of floors and ceilings.

Liam, I have no problem busting employers of illegal aliens... so long as the illegal aliens are busted as well. It always takes two to tango and so it is with illegal alien employment. The employer is wrong for knowingly employing someone who should not be here, period. The illegal alien is wrong because they knowingly violated the sovereignty of the United States to get that job. Both are equally at fault and both should be arrested, tried, convicted and punished according to the law. If you are only willing to bust employers, you will not get at the source of labor; the supply side. If you only try to stop illegals at the border you will fail because you will do nothing to address the demand side of the equation.

Both the supply of illegal labor and the demand for illegal labor must be dealt with to end the subisidization of Mexican governmental corruption and equality, end the stealing of jobs from native born Americans, and the unjust subisdization of farm prices by employing illegal labor (yes, I think that our food prices are made artificially low with illegal labor).

What say you to that?

By Big Tent Republican, at Tuesday, June 09, 2009 10:39:00 AM
Well, I have plenty to say but I'll start with your bad info on minimum wage. Although the Chamber of Commerce types trot out the same lies about minimum wage year after year, the overwhelming evidence is that an increase in the minimum wage does NOT depress employment and, in fact, leads to improved retention of employees and other savings.

San Francisco's current MW is over $9.50, and the impacts were studied at length by real researchers, as opposed to political hacks, and the evidence was conclusive: While the cost of fast food rose slightly, there were no increases in the cost of lodging or traditional restaurant fare. Employee retention improved significantly. Savings in the costs of recruitment and training more than offset the increase in wages.

So you're wrong, and you can look it up. Google "Michael Reich and minimum wage," and it'll take you to the study.

As to your comments re: the economic impact of exploitation of undoc workers, and the resultant depression in overall wages and cost of food, I agree.

By Liam, at Tuesday, June 09, 2009 10:51:00 AM
This post has been removed by the author.

By LeRoy, at Tuesday, June 09, 2009 11:11:00 AM
You're kidding right, Leroy? You really need me to explain why an undocumented (re: illegal) worker is paid less than a legal worker (not restricted to their documentation status but their citizenship and naturalization status?

You can't be that naive and new to this debate.

Liam, it is not wrong that the minimum wage depresses wages. You are wrong and present a false dicotomy by using SanFran as your example. The people that live in SF are stuck there with high mortgages and no opportunity to move away. The labor demand in SF is the same as Santa Barbara; rich elitists need gardeners and burger flippers too.

Facts are here.

MSNBC here has some very interesting points about raising the minimum wage. It states that only 10% of the work force make less than $7.25/hr. So raising the minimum wage is negligible to any attempt to either raise standards of living or to decrease unemployment. The piece goes on to say that unemployment does go UP with marginally employed, low skilled or youth workers. It also states thatjobs loses are usually mitigated with tax breaks and exemptions for small businesses, which means that us taxpayers are subsidizing those small businesses with a transfer payment through tax breaks to keep from destroying those small businesses. The article quotes the Cato Institute which says it clearly: “If the government coercively raises the price of some good (such as labor) above its market value, the demand for that good will fall, and some of the supply will become ‘disemployed,'" according to a study by the libertarian group. "Unfortunately, in the case of minimum wages, the disemployed goods are human beings.”

Which is exactly what I said.

I did attempt to Google what you listed, but I don't have the time to sift through the myriad of links from the search result to figure out which link you are vaguely refering to.

Regardless, I have already established here that I am right and you are wrong. But thanks for agreeing with me on everything else.

By Big Tent Republican, at Tuesday, June 09, 2009 11:44:00 AM
Undocumented immigrants are an easy scapegoat. A Pew report last year found that the number of undocumented immigrants coming into this country every year went down from 800,000 in 2000-4 to 500,000 in 2005-8.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/10/02/ST2008100203040.html
If there is a concern about too many people/too few jobs or a concern about too much of a drain on our schools and hospitals, why isn't anybody talking about the birth rate in this country?

Did you know that 4 million Americans are born every year? That dwarfs the number of undocumented immigrants coming into this country.

And these babies don't work, don't speak the language, and need medical care. Why are any of you illegal immigration alarmists typing in caps about the birth rate and all the money and resources we have to spend educating, feeding, providing medical care for, cleaning up after, and, eventually, employ each of these natural born citizens?

Environmentalists, where are you on this issue? The average human makes 5 pounds of trash per day.

Illegal immigrants are the easy scapegoat. If they are a problem, they are a tiny and shrinking one.

By LeRoy, at Tuesday, June 09, 2009 11:51:00 AM
No, LeRoy, yor specious, no-sequiter arguments wonn't fly her.

4 Million baies, assuming they al got past the Tiller-killer types out there, do NOT work jobs, donn't go to the emergency rom of their own accord, donn't execute college bound inner city black kids, don't drive drunk and kill families of four, and don't rape and kill little girls. None of those 4 million babies are housed at the government expense in ANY of our prisons, jails or correctional facilities. Why are you trying to scapegoat babies in order to deflect attention away from illegal aliens? Do you really have such small regard for our way of life and the lives of children to use them to try and fail to make such a point?

What is wrong with you, LeRoy?

By Big Tent Republican, at Tuesday, June 09, 2009 2:42:00 PM
Big Tent,

I'm not that naive. I was just trying to get you to explain the dissonance in your own argument.

It seems to me that, on one hand, you argue that raising the minimum wage will not cause overall wages to go up.

On the other hand, however, you argue that the low wages of the undocumented workers drive overall wages down.

So, which is it? Do the wages of the bottom income earners effect overall wages or not? According to you, only the wages of the undocumented bottom income earners effect overall wages. How do you explain that?

Also, your illegal immigrant-free utopia neglects to account for a rise in costs of producing the goods and services undocumented workers currently provide.

As stated in my previous post, your real economic concern should be the rate of procreation of the citizens in this country. Illegal immigration is a silly, insignificant thing on which to focus.

By LeRoy, at Tuesday, June 09, 2009 2:58:00 PM
BTR... I would love to act surprised that you're using Reed Garfield's thoroughly discredited hack piece as a "source," but certainly I am not. Garfield--the toady for former Congressman Saxton--relies heavily on Dave Neumark's work, which ALSO has been thoroughly discredited for its sloppy design and political underpinnings.

If you want real information about minimum wage and its economic impacts, you need to go to real researchers who begin without bias. The curious types. The ones with scientific approaches. I mean, I can find all kinds of crap on union websites or wherever to support my biases, but that doesn't support my basic mantra that I must repeat to you ad infinitum--facts matter.

And when facts become the coin of our debate realm, you find your fortunes slipping oh-so-quickly, and that is when you rush back to what the toreros call the bull's "querencia"--your place of imagined safety. And your "querencia" is the name-calling, bombast, petty insults and childish rants that attempt to disguise the fact that your emperor is totally naked of facts.

When we argue faith, no facts are required. When we argue policy and reality, facts matter, pal.

I regret that my google advice was too vague for you. It was the very first link that Google offers:

http://www.irle.berkeley.edu/cwed/wp/economicimpacts_07.pdf

By Liam, at Wednesday, June 10, 2009 8:59:00 AM
Big Tent,

What do you suppose happens to these 4 million babies after they’re born?

Don’t they need to be feed them?

Don’t they ever require medical care and crowd our hospitals?

Don’t their families receive tax breaks for adding them to our society?

Don’t they ever grow up and crowd our schools?

Don’t they ever grow up and require jobs, adding to the ever-flooded job market?

Don’t they ever grow up and commit crimes?

Don’t they consume our resources and cause pollution?

If you’re worried about overly burdened social programs, crowded schools, too few jobs, high crime rates, and disappearing resources, why point the finger at a group of 500,000 people coming into this country every year when there is another group of 4,000,000 people coming into this country every year?

Your outrage is clearly misplaced. I’ve done my part by not having children. Do yours. Don’t have children and talk others out of it. But stop blaming 11% of the problem for causing the whole thing.

By LeRoy, at Wednesday, June 10, 2009 9:34:00 AM
Leroy,
Liam,

You're having quite an exchange with BTR, although the minimum wage is a bit off topic. Perhaps I just don't quite understand your positions, but it seems you are actually in support of illegal immigration. On the other hand, I can't imagine that you would be in favor, for example, of Mexican citizens hopping the fence or Irish tourists overstaying their visas.

So I wonder how you think the issue should be dealt with. Or do you think that there is much ado about nothing and we should let things go as they are? Assuming that you are also not satisfied with how illegal immigration is dealt with in this country:

Do you favor effective physical hindrances on the southern border? Should we have an effective presence of the border patrol on the southern border? What about the northern border?

Do you think that we should have an efficient system for employers to verify that a potential employee is actually permitted to work in the USA? It would not be very fair to punish employers if there is no such possibility since they would then often be at risk of being punished for something they could not avoid doing.

Should employers be checked from time to time to see that they are not employing illegal aliens? When I was still living in Germany, it was common practice for immigration authorities to drop by construction sites, restaurants, farms and other locations where illegal aliens (usually from Eastern Europe and Russia) could get work without having to be fluent in German. Should American authorities to similar things, namely checking especially employers who do not need employees who are fluent in English?

Do you think that we should provide social benefits (e.g., social security benefits, drivers licenses, welfare, medical care, public schools, etc.) to illegal immigrants? Perhaps there are some benefits you think they should get and others you think they should not get.

Do you think that immigration status should be checked as a routine matter when a foreign citizen is arrested in the USA? After all, a great deal of other information is checked when someone is arrested (e.g., name, address, outstanding warrants, etc.), so why not do a quick check of immigration status?

How quickly would you deport illegal aliens when they get caught?

Should we convert the status of at least some illegal aliens to the status of legal aliens? For example, we did this around 1986 with an amnesty. Should we have another amnesty now, and if so for all or only some illegal aliens? We used to have the "brasero" program to allow seasonal workers into the country especially for agriculture. Should we have something similar again?

There, of course, lots of other specific points to be dealt with in any immigration policy. Except for "open border" advocates, our legislators should easily be able to come up with something that makes more sense that the current situation. My guess is that many points also would not be very controversial when viewed calmly. However, it seems that our legislators are more interested in thrashing away at each other than dealing with the problem itself.

By Chris in Paso, at Wednesday, June 10, 2009 10:38:00 AM
Chris,

Thanks for your questions. Hopefully, this response answers them all.

I think the “illegal” immigration issue is much ado about nothing. Even conservative studies show that, if they do cost the government more than they pay in taxes, the difference is negligible and, if we take into account how their low wages keep the cost of goods and services down and the money they spend in this country, that difference is erased.

As such, I am not in favor of building walls or stepping up security on the boarders. This is useless as most “illegal” aliens came here legally. They didn’t hop fences or sneak over the boarder in car trunks. They came here with legal visas, but they just overstayed.

I’m not in favor of profiling based on ethnicity, occupation, or language.

As the Constitution requires, they should be given notice and a hearing before deportation.

Employers should not be held strictly liable. They are not investigators. They are restaurant owners, ranchers, contractors, etc. They don’t have the time or resources to ensure that they never hire an illegal immigrant.

If one is genuinely concerned about a lack of jobs, low wages, overcrowded schools and hospitals, struggling social programs, etc., they should focus on the population of 4 million people that comes into this country every year via the womb every not the 500,000 (and falling) illegal immigrants who come into the country every year. Illegal immigrants account for not even 10% of the yearly population increase in this country.

If shown those numbers, I’d say that anyone who still wants to rant about illegal immigration instead of ranting about the birth rate in this country is just a bigot. And bigots cannot be persuaded.

Given the lack of a real illegal immigration problem, I don’t believe our government should waste its time and money figuring out new ways to keep people out of the country.

By LeRoy, at Wednesday, June 10, 2009 12:29:00 PM
Chris I can answer for Liam and leRoy. It would sound something like this:

How dare you question us, you jingoistic Bush loving neo-conn? You are so meanspirited as to want to break up families and throw elderly women into the freezing cold tonight to satisfy your nazi leanings for a pure race of white people sieg heiling Newt or Sarah Palin while she crows about abstinence only education during her stay as her daughter's babysitter. You are so stupid and so busy getting your marching orders from limbaugh as to not understand the brilliance and the magnanimous way that our beloved president has charted a crystal clear path to handle this problem of employers hiring undocumented workers. Of course it is the employers since EVERY undocumented person is a net plus to our society by bringing in their enlightened way of doing things and their vast cultures that are FAR FAR superior to our own provincial narrow-minded and intolerant system. If there are any criminals in the undocumented American class, we made them that way with our decadent consumerism and how we exploit the workers to pad the pockets of the rich and the powerful. I don't care what you say or what evidence you bring up to the contrary, those people you would cite are all hacks and have been discredited for voting for a republican in the last 100 years. Can you see that you are so ignorant that you should just go play in trafficl, you right-wing extremist, hate-mongering, bible-thumping, wal-mart shopping, homophobic abortion clinic protestor?

STOP PERSECUTING BROWN PEOPLE YOU SON OF A BITCH!!!! NO BLOOD FOR OIL!!!

OBAMA, OBAMA, UBER ALLES!!!!

See? That's all you need to know about the left and their opinion of ANY issue of the day.

By Big Tent Republican, at Wednesday, June 10, 2009 1:29:00 PM
Big Tent,

That was both a fair representation of my postings as well as a great example of a "big tent" approach to dealing with those who have opposing views.

Do you have an actual response to the fact that the illegal immigration population probably only contributes, at most, to 10% of the problems you cite (over-crowding of schools and hospitals, increased burden on social programs, increased job competition, etc.)?

By LeRoy, at Wednesday, June 10, 2009 4:31:00 PM
The fact is, Mexican and other immigrants destroy the wage base. I've been told, when applying for a construction job, "Herod, why should I pay you $30 per hour when I can get five or six wetbacks for that price?" The Mexican immigrants are no damn good for anything.

I used to work in ag, hand hoeing weeds, moving sprinkler pipe, harvesting the crops dawn to dusk, I've milked cows and on and on and I'm as white as anyone else here.

In the 1980s, the LA Times had a few editorials about Mexicans coming into Orange County and destroying the plastering and drywall trade with low wages.

Then a bit later, the Mexicans who busted the wages and unions of the plaster and drywall guys, these Mexicans were complaining about a NEW group of Mexicans coming in and destroying the wages even more by working cheaper then the original Mexicans!

A friend of mine in Santa Maria grew up working with his father in the 1960s and '70s learning the plastering trade. It was a union job, you could buy a house and a decent car plastering. No way anymore, that's unbelievable for now. The wages have dropped with each wave of Mexicans, legal or otherwise.

I talk to many Mexican construction workers in the Santa Maria area (where I live) and even they complain about the immigrants--legal and otherwise--lowering wages to absurdly low rates.

Truck driving used to be a very good job--it's not any longer due to Mexicans coming in a dropping the wages to where you cannot make a living. You want to pilot around an 80,000 pound truck for $8 per hour? Be my guest.

Lest you think I have a hatred for Mexicans, well, what sort of immigrants do we have around here, destroying wages, neighborhoods and entire industries? There's lots illegal Irish in New York and they should be booted out, too.

Mow your own lawn, wash your own car or at least make your kids do it. The next job you save may be your own. Illegals--get out, go home and don't come back.

By Herod in Orcutt, at Wednesday, June 10, 2009 8:15:00 PM
Xenophobes, jingoists, bigots, fanatics, and plain ignorant nativists....
They're basically the same: externalizers excusing their own inadequacies because of various "others".

They used to put these dangerous lunatics into asylums where they could only harm each other or themselves until Reagan gutted the mental health system.
Now, they form the base of the Republican party.

We are privy to the prattlings of several of these unhinged psychopaths on this comment board on a regular basis.

By Howland Owl, at Wednesday, June 10, 2009 10:11:00 PM
Leroy:

The discussion on this blog was going so well until you chose to pull the race card by writing:

"If shown those numbers, I’d say that anyone who still wants to rant about illegal immigration instead of ranting about the birth rate in this country is just a bigot. And bigots cannot be persuaded."

I trust your accusation of racism doesn't apply to those of us who are concerned about illegal immigration but don't "rant". If you think that people expressing concern are racists, don't waste your time with them.

There might just be some good grounds for concern, especially in the states bordering Mexico where there are relatively large populations of illegal immigrants (or as the official Federal Government jargon describes them, "unauthorized immigrants").

The only truly authoritative report I found on "unauthorized immigrants" was a report from the Department of Homeland Security at http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/statistics/publications/ois_ill_pe_2008.pdf . According to that report (Table 4 on page 4), the total population of illegal immigrants in the USA in 2008 was 11,600,000, with 2,850,000. That is a quite a large number of illegal aliens in California and clearly a basis for concern, considering that this is around 9% of the population in California.

I found it very difficult to find authoritative sources for such statistics as the number of incarcerated illegal immigrants. In "sanctuary" cities such as L.A., statistics about the immigration status of criminals are intentionally suppressed; ignorance is preferable there. I gave up looking for reliable statistics on the percentage of illegal aliens in California's prison system. The most common view tends to hover around 25%, with estimates going down to around 9% and as high as 50%. In any event, a large number of prisoners are illegal aliens, and this is also a reasonable basis for concern, not only with regard to the costs of incarceration, but also the crimes that sent the inmates to prison in the first place.

As difficult as it is to find reliable statistics on any other aspect of the illegal imigration issue, there is at least a basis for concern in such areas as the economic costs of illegal immigration.

I am quite concerned about the issue, and I am not a bigot (but I also don't like to "rant"). Now assuming that you don't think that I am a bigot, let me respond briefly to a couple of other points in your posting:

Your argument that taking measures to stop illegal immigration at the border is worthless because many illegal aliens enter on visas and overstay their visas has two flaws. First, the premise is that only one area of enforcement is possible. However, preventing illegal immigration obviously requires a multi-faceted approach, including measures at the border, imposing disincentives for employers and dealing with illegal aliens when they get caught up in the criminal law system. Second, your argument is based on the false premise that any measure only makes sense if it is 100% effective. It is impossible for a society to do virtually anything with 100% effectiveness, but any measure can be dhecked to see whether it materially contributes to solving a problem or not.

Your comparison of 4 million children born each year with the number of illegal immigrants is outlandish. It implies that we can solve all our social problems by opening the borders to let in the positive contributors while aborting our own babies (or maybe also decimating the children who are already here?). I will be generous and assume you were making a lame attempt at an argumentum ad absurdum.

What I take away from your postings is that you don't really care about the issue of illegal immigration and are willing to acccept the current situation, with a tendency towards being more lax with illegal aliens. I also see a disturbing tendency to sink to personal insults and play the race card when someone just expresses concern about the problem. Bad form!

By Chris in Paso, at Wednesday, June 10, 2009 11:20:00 PM
Leroy, why bring up the 4 million Americans born every year? Did you know this number is not sustainable to the American population? That is only a 2.06 children per woman and since 106 boys are born for every 100 girls, the United States population would decline (it is not conceivable to assume all 100 women would live to child bearing age). The silver lining in the above is that liberal women have 1.47 children while conservatives have 2.1. This is also why it is imperative for liberals to indoctrinate our children in the schools or their party will diminish.
With a birth rate that will not replenish itself, immigration is necessary. Legal immigration. I was talking to an exchange student from Uzbekistan last week who is an Associate Doctorate in Physics (over half of our Associate Doctorates in Physics and Mathematics are foreigners) and he was thinking about not renewing his visa’s in hopes of becoming a US citizen if President Obama gives citizenship to illegal’s. He has tried and tried the legal route and is getting nowhere. Per Jura (the Uzbekistani), many of these people would like to remain in the United States, but can not get their citizenship. All that training and knowledge going back to other countries. We need all kinds of immigrants. I just believe the process needs to be improved. Why should some countries have quotas while others arrive without impunity?

By Hoosier21, at Thursday, June 11, 2009 6:15:00 AM
It's really very simple. If they are breaking the law arrest and deport. We already have laws in place.
You all argue about the humanitarian aspect. Well, if they came here ilegally then they knew they we breaking the law and at some point would have to pay the piper.
So all we have to do is to enforce the Rule of Law (as Obama often states) and round them up and deport them. No racism involved just dealing with those that break the law of the land.
Once you do that to the first one the rest will get the message and leave rather than going through the legal system like cattle.
See? Simple, easy and the law is already on our side.
Case closed, except to find a democrat that wants to uphold any law. That's the problem.

By Simple Simon, at Thursday, June 11, 2009 7:16:00 AM
Chris,

There are 39,606,666 people in California, including illegal immigrants. The 2,850,000 illegal immigrants in California is 7% of the total Californian population.

Mexican and Latin American illegal immigrants (the main subject of this thread) only account for about 78% of the total illegal immigrant population. They probably only make up about 5.5% of the population. Some are here illegally because they sneaked across the boarder, but most are here illegally because they over-stayed their visas or violated some technicality thereof.

The reason I bring up procreation as the problem is because the arguments I hear against illegal immigration seem to boil down to complaints about over-population. Since our own procreation dwarfs the population growth caused by illegal immigration, I say we stop preaching procreation as a noble endeavor. Stop encouraging breeding with tax breaks. Stop allowing people with children board the plane first. Take steps to cut all the social capital gained by adding 1 or 5 more people to the job market. Start looking at those bumper stickers with all the stick figure families as indicators of how many more parking spaces will be taken up, how much more difficult it will be to find a seat at the movie theater, or how much more pollution will be spewed into the environment.

Anyway, that's my little solution to your complaints. I'm not advocating mandatory abortions, just social disapproval and an end to government sponsored reproductive incentives.

By LeRoy, at Thursday, June 11, 2009 9:53:00 AM
What Chris, Herod (who, BTW, doesn't come across as bigoted at all), and Big Tent need to remember is that this has all happened before. There have been multiple times in our country's history when a new generation of immigrants has come into this country pissing off the previous generations of immigrants by increasing job competition. It's a sad recurring story of those in the bottom income brackets blaming each other for their circumstances.

The whole time average wages have been falling for the middle and lower classes, those in the upper class have seen their bank accounts swell at an incredibly disproportionate rate.

The problem of wealth distribution is so bad that, of industrialized countries, only Mexico has a worse distribution of wealth than the U.S.

The board of directors never takes a pay cut. Instead, they lay off middle management and cut over-time pay for all the low-rung workers.

The real problem is that capitalism is a failed system. Discussions like this prove it. If you only employ legal workers, you must pay them minimum wage and that drives the cost of goods and services up. If you pay less than minimum wage, wages are driven down.

Illegal immigration is just a convenient tool the power establishment has to keep the worker bees fighting amongst each other.

By LeRoy, at Thursday, June 11, 2009 9:57:00 AM
Hoosier,

True, America is seeing a decline in the rate of procreation, but it's not a significant one and the fact that we are living longer and consuming more than we ever did makes it even less significant.

By LeRoy, at Thursday, June 11, 2009 10:03:00 AM
Leroy,
I have a few bones to pick.
1) "The whole time average wages have been falling for the middle and lower classes, those in the upper class have seen their bank accounts swell at an incredibly disproportionate rate." What facts or what source are you using to make such an outrageously false statement. I'd be interested to know.
2) Yes, immagrants have always been a big parts of building America. One thing you forgot to mention> Other than the Mexicans all the olters came here legally.
3)"The board of directors never takes a pay cut. Instead, they lay off middle management and cut over-time pay for all the low-rung workers." True! But that's why yopu stay in school and earn a degree so you can be in the big room rather thanwrenching in the pit. America peomises equal opportunity...NOT equal outcome.
4)"The real problem is that capitalism is a failed system." Oh really? Then explain to me why every European country in recent elections candidates the were elected were from the consevative/capitol movements? Europe is moving away from socialism. What news sources do you read? Are yopu not keeping up with world politics?
5)"They probably only make up about 5.5% of the population." You couldn't be more wrong. Goverment studies show the illegal population to be growing to over 30 million. That's 10% of the opoulation. Proof of this is letting ACORN rin the cenus!
6)"Illegal immigration is just a convenient tool the power establishment has to keep the worker bees fighting amongst each other Wrong again, my friend. Illegal immagration is just a convieniant tool of the Democrats to stay in power, since the people will never stand for what Obama is doing for much longer.
7)"The reason I bring up procreation as the problem is because the arguments I hear against illegal immigration seem to boil down to complaints about over-population". The facts are that for every white baby born in California 5 brown babies are born. This bears out in other states as well. Procreation is a powerful tool when it comes to taking control (or in the case of our state, taking California back to Mexico.)

Just wanted to set the record straight. (no pun intended)

By Factsman, at Thursday, June 11, 2009 12:29:00 PM
Why is it that so many come here from Mexico and Central America? Is it because there are so many safety nets in place that you can come here without documentation and either find a job, rent a place to stay, send money home to their families, and then "get" all of the programs like welfare, food stamps, and so on? Those on the right seem to believe all of that happens, regardless of a lack of evidence to back up those assertions. I feel that the reason most of those who come here from down south without documentation do so because life in their home country is so miserable. Even before NAFTA starting having its devastating effects, the disparity between the super rich and the masses of poor in Mexico was (is even more, now) has led to actual occurrences of open defiance of laws. Link here to an article from 1996 talking about the poor storming a rich person's estate, and another mention about a train that was stopped in a poor area because it was carrying food. If Mexico and the Central American nations would work to provide a better social structure so that everyone living there had an "equal opportunity", perhaps there would not be such a rush for the poor to come here to the United States and be willing to work for the slave wages offered, be willing to shack up six or eight to a house, and work to make their country a place where they can actually live. Off topic as to how this affects our state budget, but I feel the root cause of undocumented workers coming here is not being addressed.

By Downtown Bob, at Thursday, June 11, 2009 2:05:00 PM
“Factsman,”

First off, nice spelling. "Opoulation?"

I’ll respond to your “bones to pick” in order.

1) Here’s a study by the Federal Reserve from 2006 http://www.federalreserve.gov/pubs/feds/2006/200613/200613pap.pdf

Here’s a study on the U.S. as compared to other countries from 2006 http://www.cepr.net/documents/social_exclusion_2006_08.pdf

I know you weren’t really interested in reading them, but you asked and you shall receive.

2) Other than Mexicans, all other “immagrants” came to this country legally?! Sure, that’s believable. If you think it's easy for people to sneak into this country now, think of what it must have been like a hundred years ago.

3) It would be nice if all it took to be a millionaire CEO was a good work ethic in grade school. Unfortunately, while we, mostly, have equal rights in this country, we don’t have equal access. While you and George Bush have equal rights to a Yale education, George Bush had better access to that Yale education (I’m making the dangerous assumption, probably from your spelling, that you’re not Yale educated).

4) Don’t be fooled by labels. Most of Europe’s “conservatives” would be labeled “Marxists” by the Hannity’s and Limbaugh’s over here. Most of Europe’s “conservatives” make Obama look like Ron Paul.

5) First, the 5.5% figure was in reference to California. Keep up. Second, even the most liberal of credible estimates have the total of illegal immigrants in the U.S. at 20 million, but the most accepted number is around 11 million.

With a population of about 306 million citizens, the national illegal immigrant population is anywhere from 4-7% of the national population.

6) I’m not sure how to respond to this one because I can’t find a coherent point.

7) Aha! Thank you, Factsman. You’ve proved my point about the racial motivations of the anti-illegal immigration movement. Perfect. See, everybody?! This is what I’m talking about. So don’t tell me it’s unfair to point out the racist element of the anti-illegal immigration argument.

Factsman, are you just afraid you’ll be the only white racist left in California? Don’t worry. The “brown” people won’t beat you up on your way to Walmart. Most of them are really nice, decent people.

By LeRoy, at Thursday, June 11, 2009 2:17:00 PM
Downtown Bob,

Right on point.

The only solution to the illegal immigration "problem" is improvement of the distribution of wealth in Latin-American countries.

By LeRoy, at Thursday, June 11, 2009 3:01:00 PM
The problem with illegal immigration is the rampant corruption in South America that causes the wealth inequities that forces the underemployed and the dispossessed to need to come America to earn anything close to a decent wage and send that money back home.

You fix the corruption, you will fix the wealth inequities and you will see a dramatic drop in illegal immigration to the US. it starts in Mexico, but most all South and Central American nations need serious reforms.

By Big Tent Republican, at Tuesday, June 30, 2009 3:34:00 PM

Dave Congalton on News Talk 920 KVEC

Sunday, June 07, 2009

Arnold and the Illegals

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